The Psychology of Money (Book Club) - Childfree Wealth Podcast Ep. 47

Dr. Jay

Hey, all you Childfree Wealth listeners or viewers or however you're getting this on the podcast, we are going back to the book club today. We are talking about The Psychology of Money. Now, in general, there's this rule that about 80 percent of your success with finance is behavioral. And that's what Morgan Housel was stepping into.

It's a very interesting book, but Bri is going to walk us through it. Kind of what's there, what's not, and we'll look at some childfree spins on it. So Bri, what'd you think?

Bri

I really like this book overall. I rated it four stars. The only critique that I have is I was hoping to have a little bit more nerd in it. It's like a little bit more about how the brain actually works. There were a lot of stories, which I appreciated. But I also like to learn a little bit more in-depth and more sciencey sort of things. So that's my only critique. So the thing on behavioral stuff, so behavioral finance, my pick on it now, keep in mind, my Ph.D., much of the work is in cognitive psychology. So I'm a little bit too nerdy on this, but they pretend like this psychology stuff is different just for finances. And I don't know that I agree with that. You know, that's just the nature of it. And I think when people say I want nerdy, Be careful what you ask, you know, when you get really nerdy, the ones I love, they have like functional MRIs of the brain and how it works, which really isn't going to improve it, but it is fun. I do like the nerdy stuff. So if you want, I will hook you up with some more nerdy.

Dr. Jay

All right, Bri. Take us for a tour. What'd you learn?

Bri

So I took three big takeaways. The first one was freedom and flexibility are the true unseen indicators of wealth. So with freedom and flexibility, we often talk about either like quitting your job if you don't like it or switching and cutting back work or just living a life that you want. And we really prioritize focusing on your life first and your finances. Part of that is having established a financial situation that allows you to do it. Making sure you have an emergency fund, being out of debt, and then insurance is in place and estate planning is all done. So that way you can go and do the other things that you want. That's not the sexy stuff that people see. People see like flashy cars or the latest clothes or big homes. They don't see the accounts underneath that allow you to go and take time off work or switch your job, different things like that.

Dr. Jay

And they also don't really see that an emergency fund allows me to have flexibility. Like, there's a logic gap there, and I talk a lot about this with clients and say, If you get out of debt, that's no baby step two. Get out of an emergency fund, fully emergency fund, that's no baby step three. Then we go to steps four, five, six, seven, we can actually live our life. But we have to have that foundation. And a lot of times people worry too much about the number. But not what they're going to get from it. So Bri, for you, what's the flexibility you get from your finances?

Bri

I like the fact that I work 30 hours a week. It is enjoyable for me because I can see my friends and travel, go do different things. I like that today I'm gonna be packing up after we record this podcast and I'm going on a weekend trip. And I have that ability to go do that or say yes to different things and be around different people and go out, and I don't have to. I do it within reason, but I can say yes a lot of the times to different things I'd like to do.

Dr. Jay

And that comes because you have a foundation in finance. And I think you can't measure, Hey, I get to do a three-quarters of a workweek, 30 hours. Bri and I have this discussion all the time. Like I'm good with our work in 30 hours. But I'd love her to work like 60. I don't have her work 60 because I understand it's important to her. Some of the things like for me, a simple one, because I've got no debt. I've got money. I've got freedom, flexibility. I can afford to buy all the streaming services. It sounds stupid, but I like being able to go like, nope, that one sucks. I'm going to go to a different one this week and like it sounds stupid, but I like being able to go like, nope, that one sucks. I'm going to go to a different one this week and like not have to cancel and restart. And like, I know it's not the best. I like spending of my money, but I like having like pretty much all the streaming services. It sounds weird, but that is freedom of flexibility for others is jobs and whatever else.

And yeah, I, we do those too. I think the childfree folks embrace the freedom of flexibility a bit earlier than parents anyway by nature. But what Morgan's really trying to talk about is. There are things that money gets you that you can't measure. And that's the hard part. Bri, what's it worth to you in money, being able to work 30 hours a week instead of 40?

Bri

I guess the lower income. That's a number…

Dr. Jay

If you're getting less, but how do…

Bri

We often have this conversation. I think I'm more of an introvert. Dr. J thinks I'm more of an extrovert. And I think I'm maybe starting to agree with him. Because I've had a lot of people recently tell me like, “Oh, you're really outgoing.”

And I'm like, I don't think I am. But I love going out and seeing friends and doing those different things. And just with the nature of things, I haven't really got to do that these past few weeks. And I'm like, man, like, I really just miss my friends. Like, I love going to trivia night. I love being able to be like, hey, let's go for a hike, or let's go for a swim after work, or do something. And just that connection and community is so important to me.

Dr. Jay

Here's what I'm going to challenge you, and anyone listening to this, in the free room flexibility, I'd like to encourage you to put a number on the value of that flexibility. So for example, where you could measure number of trivia nights, number of nights with friends, something, and push that as a goal.

Because what happens is when people say, well, what's it worth to you? I don't know. No, you got to measure it. Cause otherwise you're not going to know the value of it. And when people go, well, should I work more? Should I? No, everything has a value. Now, reality check, by the way, for those people struggling with finance, I understand this sounds tone deaf.

You know, if you're still paying for rent and ramen, that's hard, but we're talking about that next step. And how do you measure? And one of my colleagues measures it by the number of days he gets to go hiking in the mountains. Awesome. I don't care what the measurement is. You need to put a number on it or something or like.

My wife and I've done this. She likes the gold stars. You have the stickers like, okay, well, you start stickers. I don't care something to measure what that freedom flexibility is getting you because otherwise money will push it. That makes sense.

Bri

Yeah, it makes sense. And I guess like, when I think about it more. Having the flexibility gets me the opportunity to, like, spend two nights out during the week with friends and then go do long workouts and just, like, take my time at the gym and, like, three to five days a week. I also have a challenge coming up that I want to do is hike the entire National Park. It won't be in a day.

I still want to do it and it's A few hundred miles, having the time to do all of those things is really important to me.

Bri

And by the way, I'm trying to use a psychology trick here. If I can get Bri to measure hikes or timeout or whatever workouts, I'm using it as a substitute for monetary measures. Because what Bri just said is she's actually taking a pay cut. I'm just being transparent on this. Hey, I'm not going to talk about the actual numbers because Bree would kill me. But she's working 30 hours instead of 40. So she gets paid for 30 hours instead of 40. There's a value there. You have to have a measure to go, Okay, I'm willing to give up 10 hours of work for my hiking.

And that's kind of the way the brain is wired, is we need to see a math equation in most cases. Versus people be like, Oh, you know what, never mind. I'll just go work those extra hours and they don't realize what they're giving up. Does that make sense, Bri?

Bri

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, because even when I think about, like, fire versus file, I think about maybe, like, I would retire because I think about all the things I like to do.

Like, before I took one of my, um, exams, Dr. Jay was like, okay, the day before, just go work out until you don't want to work out anymore. And so, like, I went and ran, and then I went and played tennis, and then I went to the pool, and I did all these things, and I love being outside and just doing all of these activities so much.

So, I could fill my entire week with this. Because when I've like taken breaks, that's what I've done and I have a fantastic time doing it. It's so fun.

Dr. Jay

Alright, Bri, you just gave me an idea. We'll have to see if she likes it, but we're going to go, we're going. This is live recording. So who knows? So one of my colleagues does a, she does it as Facebook live, but she does a walk and talk on finance. Like, Hey, you know, we're just going to go for half an hour. We go out walking about and ask the questions and you can answer it. Maybe we should get Bri to set up one of those for us.

Bri

There's a lady in my neighborhood who does that. I'll see her walking all the time on her phone, and she's like talking to, I don't know who she's talking to, but she's always holding it out and talking. I don't know that I would do it, because I don't have sidewalks in my neighborhood. So I have to walk on the street and be more attentive.

Dr. Jay

Well, the whole point of this freedom and flexibility is you get to choose to do that or not. I mean, that's kinda like the point. What’s the second point?

Bri

The second point that I had was, you're not always gonna be rational, but instead just work on being reasonable. Because sometimes, and we're not rational about things, you know, we have a vacation coming up and I set aside. Like, 500 for a dinner, which is, I know, that's pretty ridiculous, but it's our anniversary and I'm like, I really want to have to worry about going over budget, so I'm just going to go ahead and give us a big thing, even though it's, I think depending on what we do that night, it could be more than that, but I'm trying to be reasonable and I think 500 feels reasonable for this, because I don't really know yet.

Dr. Jay

For those watching, Bri just justified that 500 like three different ways. Yeah, I did. I mean, this is, this is the game we have with money, right? We are not good about this. So I have people that talk to me about budget and I'm like talking about getting out of debt or something. And they're like, yeah, but I have to pay for my gym membership.

And I'm like, I'm not telling you, you got to stop doing the gym membership. I'm telling you got to stop buying the other crap you're buying. And they're like, but my gym membership is 200 bucks. I'm like, like, seriously, it's about the other stuff. And we start this rationalization. And I'm like, Oh, if I get on a budget, I'm never going to have any fun.

I'm going to start like, and I'm like, no, you can still have fun. I think what happens with money is we pretend like it's all just numbers and it's not like the numbers of the easy part of this and Bri and I've had this discussion a lot and I'll be surprised if 10 percent of the time, maybe 20 percent of the time I'm talking about numbers with clients. Trest of the time we talk about. Life and what matters and people will be like, Oh, but it's 7. And I'm like, yeah, you know, but they'll get stuck on a number. Your $500 for your dinner.

Bri

Yeah. I have to like, I know it's okay to do that because it's, we already budgeted for the trip in general and it's okay to set that aside. But still, I'm like, that's a high number. Like, I feel like I need to justify it, which I really don't.

Dr. Jay

Well, who are you justifying it to?

Bri

Myself because I just feel like that’s a ridiculous amount. But, the place we’re going is the place we went to on our wedding night and it’s very nice and very expensive and it overlooks the water. And I like that and want to do that.

Dr. Jay

By the way, everybody’s listening is going, you just rationalized it again rather than just saying you know what this makes no sense. Let me do it. Okay. Here’s the real test. The rest test is if I take 500 bucks outside and light it on fire, is it going to change your life?

Bri

No, it won’t. I know.

Dr. Jay

Now, by the way, we can't do that every day. Like seriously, if I, if I light 500 bucks on fire every day, we're gonna have a problem. But it's a different money mindset. And that's by the way, for those who haven't read the book on psychology of money, really we're talking about money mindsets. The word I use is mental model. That's a psychology term. But the way of thinking, we're really talking about how did we shift that? You know, we can't spend 500 bucks every day. But, once in a while, you're okay. And I like using the test of, if I light it on fire, what would happen? If I light 500 bucks on fire, and all of a sudden you're gonna, like, not make your bills for the month, and you're gonna have to take out debt, we got a problem. You can't do that. If it's not gonna change the long term outcome, who cares?

Bri

Yeah, might not necessarily be rational to spend that much all the time, but it is reasonable for the trip I'm going on, in other words.

Dr. Jay

Yep. And the other thing that I want people that are listening to think about is over what time period. Yeah. So if I'm spending 500 bucks a week, maybe it's getting crazy. 500 bucks a month. I don't know. I might be able to spend 500 bucks for my anniversary once a year. Who cares? You know, and that's the reasonable part of this. Um, but we also don't want to fall in the trap of justifying every single expense. One of my favorite tricks is I'll take somebody's entire amount they made for the year. I'll figure out what their musts and shoulds, what their actual budget is. And then the end result is their stuff budget. Which is everything they spend on just whatever they've rationalized on the way by. And unfortunately, it's a giant number for most people.

Bri

No, not at all. I don't have a very big stuff budget anyway.

Dr. Jay

Who cares? It's your anniversary. Have fun. Now, the one caution though, especially with trips and anniversaries, set a budget. I don't care what it is. Cause like, if you go on a trip, it'd be like, well, I'm on a trip, so I might as well spend, you know, I could just spend more money. And then all of a sudden it becomes a crazy number. Be aware that your mind's playing tricks. That's number two. What was number three?

Bri

Know when enough is enough, it says in there that enough will never be too little. Explain that. I think it's easy to get caught up in the trap of comparison and always saying we need more and we need more and we need more. But at what point does more make us happy?

Dr. Jay

What's your point? What's your magic number?

Bri

My magic number is not so much spending, it's just being able to spend time with people.

Dr. Jay

So if you were broke but you could spend time with people, is that okay?

Bri

Yeah, because I, I've been at the point where I didn't have a lot of extra money to spend on things because I, like, I could only spend what I had and I wasn't making a lot, but I got to spend time with people. And I was having a great time.

Dr. Jay

Enough is one of those hard ones. So they talk about the hedonic treadmill and you, you know, you buy more, you make more, you make more, you buy more, you just get stuck on this cycle. One of the challenges for child free folks is we hit enough a lot earlier in life. This is because from racing file, we're trying to live early, we're trying to die with zero. There comes a point where you've got enough. And I will tell you, this is a struggle with clients where I'm like, okay, you're good. You've got enough. Now what? And they're like, well, how about I add more? I'm like, so what? Like the, there's a point for childfree folks that at some point, every dollar you're earning is going to your state, which is not a priority for you. That enough point is really when I'm giving money away that I don't really care about, which at that point, if you're working and you want to, that's cool. If you don't, that's okay too. That enough thing I think is also influenced by everything in life. You know, all the social media and embarrassing. And of course, lifestyle creep. I mean, how are you going to know Bri when you get enough?

Bri

I like to do a certain number of trips every year. Like, our current income, if we weren't paying off debt, I honestly think I would be okay. Because even now, I have a lot of my personal money left over every month, and I just put it aside for, like, I have a friend coming to visit soon, or like I'm going on a trip and probably spend it there, but I don't really spend a lot on my day to day because I just like being outside is my main thing. So I think enough is when I can continue living in the neighborhood that I live in because I'm absolutely obsessed with it and our pool that we have here and everything. I don't want to give that up and I can still do the trips that I want to do every year.

Dr. Jay

Okay, so let's talk about numbers. I'll pull out my numbers when I retire or whatever I want to call it because I don't know if I ever really retire, I want to but I don't know if my mental model can work with it. I'm not sure I can actually stop working. That's like if I stop working for a weekend by Monday, I'm ready to work again. But right now I'm working way too much. I'm not good at balance. I freely admit that but here's my magic number: I want to buy a boat, travel the world on the boat. Cool. So my number that allows me to do that is about 5,000,000 net worth. There's a whole lot of math behind it. Cool.

But I have a backup number. So the backup number is 10,000,000 and that's going to sound weird, just go with me for a second. So the 10,000,000 number is, hey, you got enough to pay for the boat and probably somebody to help you with the boat. And everything else after that is pointless. I actually have set like kind of a max number to my life. There are people going, What? You can never have millions of dollars. There's other people going, 10 million is too small. Like, everybody's got a judgment on those numbers. Those are my enough numbers. You know, in the fire world, my 5 million would be my fire number, and 10 my fat fire number. Whatever. Do I have to hit those to be happy? No. But I know if I hit those numbers, I can get what I want, and that's enough.

And here's the thing I'm working on, I've got my business, it's going great. You know what we're growing at some point, if you're doing the right things, you just fly by your number. At what point do you pull up, break hard and be like, okay, I'm done. And I'm not sure, maybe when I get there, I'll figure that out. But this is one we talk with clients a lot about. Okay, how do you spend that over the rest of your life? And what do you do? Because once you hit 10 million, now that money is making money on the money. And it just becomes hard. And I don't know. Those are fake numbers. They might shift. The watch out is, if I hit my 10 million dollar number. And I'm like, Okay, well I'm going to keep working at 20 million.

Bri

I'll do that, don't worry.

Dr. Jay

That’s free service you'll provide?

Bri

Yeah, happy to.

Dr. Jay

And I've had this discussion with people and I'm like, Okay, quit your job. And that was one of our podcasts, if you haven't caught that. Literally, I tell a lot of people that. And they're like, Why? I'm like, Because you have enough! Well, but, but, but! And then we get into the guilt, which is another part. This enough one is hard. Bri, do you have a hard fast where I get to shake you and say, Hey, that's enough?

Bri

I don't know yet, because it depends on like certain things, I guess. Depends on like, if we do long term care insurance, or if we self fund that, but I'm not even old enough to apply for long term care insurance yet. So hopefully, by the time I'm old enough to apply, I can still apply for it. I don't know. It's hard. That's a big worry for me.

Dr. Jay

Which is?

Bri

The not, like, funding long term care and potentially not being able to apply for it or getting denied. Hey, by the way, the bonus, if I have 10 million dollars, I can afford long term care.

Bri

I know.

Dr. Jay

But that, that's the, so this is part of this question. So people are like, I need more because of, and then they rationalize, just like we just talked about, and say, hey, I need to cover long term care. And I'm like. Just go buy a policy. You have to be 30 to do this, that's why Bri can't. But go buy a policy, you check the box, I'm done. And then people are like, well, but what about this? If the world comes to an end? I'm like, if the world comes to an end, the money doesn't matter.

Bri

Yeah, if the world comes down, I'm less concerned about that part. 

Dr. Jay

But this is the question about how much enough is enough.

Bri

I don't know what the numbers are yet because I thought it was going to be 10 million. Now I'm not so sure that's it. And so I just trying to not like think too far ahead and get myself. Because otherwise I start talking to my wife about this and she's like, I can't think that far ahead.

Dr. Jay

Yeah. By the way, keep in mind with financial planners, literally our job is planning ahead. So we go way further. If you ask my wife, what enough is she goes when. Dr. Jay says we're good. I should say J, but she'll probably like, give me a snide remark when you say we're good enough. Like it'll be something like that. But you know, if you asked her, who knows, she'll never stop working. I'll probably, I'm so sucked into this child free finance. I'll probably be like writing books, you know, when I'm old and don't need the money. I'll just have to find some place to donate it to. But you need to think about what enough means. And here's the thing. Don't listen to your friends, don't listen to your family. Don't even listen to me. You gotta pick the number. By pure luck, Bri and I both pulled out 10 million out of our behinds, but that doesn't mean it's the right number for anyone else.

Bri

Yeah, I feel like that'll be like my minimum, but I don't know. It's, it's hard for me to, because otherwise I know if I go down this path, then I'm gonna talk about it too much, and then she's gonna tell me, stop talking about it again, and she's, yeah, so I'm trying to not worry about it and just do one step at a time. Otherwise I get too excited.

Dr. Jay

Here's something to notice. Bri just said 10 million's her minimum. It's my maximum.

Bri

Yeah, well, we're like 20 years apart, so you,

Dr. Jay

You know, you don't have to tell me I'm old.

Bri

I have told you 10 million before and you're like, no, it shouldn't be your number because you're a lot younger than I am.

Dr. Jay

I make it up where I'm going with this is that's the whole point is you need to figure out when enough is enough. You need to shift that net worth curve down and that freaks people out. Yeah. So did Morgan have any great advice on like how we should figure out what enough is enough? Really?

Bri

He just said a lot, a lot of things like you have to reflect upon yourself about what that is, and I could tell you, okay, I want to take a couple international trips a year, like at least one trip every month, like weekend trip, and be able to go do whatever I want solo as well, a couple times a year with friends, like, That I can tell you the activities I want to do to be enough, but it's a lot harder to say like the dollar amount because there are some trips we want to do that are going to be substantially more expensive and then other ones that are going to be a lot cheaper. So it's just harder to put a number on it.

Dr. Jay

Yeah, and this is the tricks. So this is the whole psychology point is you need to figure out what matters to you, then put a number on it and then say when it's enough. Ooh, that's some tough thinking. That is not like. Hey, this magic, you know, I take my number of expenses, multiply it by this and magically gives me a number. And you had a fourth one. So what was your fourth thing?

Bri

The last one was manage your money in a way that lets you sleep at night. And that is something on our intake question we asked. What keeps you up at night? So I thought that was perfect, tied in. Because that is, a lot of people will say like, Oh, well this really worries me, or I, I'm worried about this at night. So finding a system that works for you is important.

Dr. Jay

I added a question about what keeps you up at night. What I love the answer is, usually I get the, Well, nothing's keeping me up at night, but I worry about blah, blah. And I'm like, so what you're saying is it's not truly keeping me up at night, but it is, it is on the borderline. Some nights it probably does. And we all have them. For investing is a great example of this. If your investments are keeping you up at night, you've either taken on too much risk or you don't understand the investments. If long term care is keeping you up at night, we need a plan for it. If debt's keeping you up at night, we need a plan for it. And just, you just start filling it in. And really the goal is to make your money simple so your life can be amazing. You really want to not think about your money. Now, by the way, that's hard. That's, that's a reprogram your whole brain. Like, my goal is to check my net worth twice a year. I'm not there. I check it much more frequently than I should. I mean, I work in finance, so I probably have an excuse there. But, you know, you got to get to a point where you're just like, whatever. I'm good. And it's not driving your decision making. Now, Bri, anything keep you up at night on your finances?

Bri

I just want to be investing more. That's all. Like that, that is my big thing. I'm like, oh man, really want to put more in there.

Dr. Jay

So what you're saying is an imaginary race to get more invested is keeping up at night.

Bri

Yeah, because I like seeing the, the bar filled in completely, but like.

Dr. Jay

So if I shorten the bar, so it's filled in completely, we're good.

Bri

Yeah, I guess if you can like let Fidelity know or something to make it smaller for me, but yeah, like whenever I log in, it's like, oh, yeah, this one's gonna like, I just want to get that done now.

Dr. Jay

Okay, little caution on the apps and stuff like, oh, this drives me crazy. People come to me and go, I'm behind. And I'm like, behind who? Says who? And, well, I'm not doing as much as I… Okay.

And then I'll run through the numbers, and I'm like. You're fine. You've got enough. And they're like, yeah, but the Fidelity says I should have more. And I'm like, no duh, because they make money off of you. That was a discussion we had on fees. And Bree's falling for it.

Bri

Yeah, like, it bothers me because it's not in one specific account that I can see it. Like, we've invested more this year than before, but it's in a different account, so it doesn't fill that bar up, and then it drives me nuts. And I'm like, oh man.

Dr. Jay

This by the way, this is why we go back to, I think Bri should be measuring like numbers of hikes or, you know, vacation or other things rather than watching that number. If you do want to watch one number, watch your net worth. That is everything you own, minus everything you owe, and you want to be going in the direction you want to go. And by the way, notice I didn't say up because for some people. If you have enough, you want it to go down. That becomes the bar. Now, more you've invested, it'll bounce all over the place. But, I don't know. Maybe it's a societal problem. It's like there's like some game that we have to win. And, you know, have the most, collect the most toys. Say, oh, who has the most toys, wins or something, whatever, and you die with? No toys. So, who cares? You know, and I'll freely admit, Brian, I'm with you. I have some of my own problems. I want certain things to go a certain way. And if they don't, I beat myself up. Whatever. But, we gotta get to a point where we realize, you know what, it's okay to just be happy, enjoy our money, have fun, and not meet the score.

Bri

Yes, you're right.

Dr. Jay

You gonna get there Bri?

Bri

Yes, I know. As long as, it's harder being in this job because I'm like logging into accounts more often. And then, so naturally, I'm like, oh, might as well check my own, too. And so, normally, I, I, before, I wasn't like this, but now it's definitely become more of a problem. And I know, like, I just like things to be at 100 percent and filled in. It's that whole, like, I got paid by my parents, like, they'd give me a dollar when I was in elementary school for every A I got on a spelling test, like 100%.

Dr. Jay

My grandmother gave me five, so I got hooked up with the A's.

Bri

Yeah, dang. Yeah. So I was like motivated by a hundred.

Dr. Jay

Bri and I have been having discussions and she's taken on some clients now working through the process. And my argument almost every time is focused more on life, on the meaning, on behaviors, and skip the money. And it's really, really hard to do. Because clients want to drag you into the money. You want to look at the numbers. You want a scorecard, but that's not what makes you happy. Money, unfortunately, as a scorecard is more likely to make you upset. I didn't put enough. I didn't do enough. I'm not gaining what I want. You know, right now we're recording this, this month, the stock market's down. So my investments are down. I'm having a bad. It's like jumping on the scale every day and deciding how your day is going to be. Okay, your weight bounces every day. You shouldn't be watching that every day either. Same with your money. And we all do it. What is that number? A number that's going to tell me if I have a good day or bad. No, like seriously. All right Bree, so should everybody read the book?

Bri

Yes, I would definitely suggest reading this book for everybody, a good insight on how your brain works when it comes to money.

Dr. Jay

Alright, next up on the book list. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to add to this a vote for the next book, but we have to, like, we record in advance. So you can actually weigh in and say, Hey, I'd love you to review this book or that book. Put it in the comments. But what Bri and I are going to do for the next book is essential retirement planning for solo agers. Sarah Geber did the book, 2018, talks about life and some of the structures. This is for the soloists. Read along with us. We will pick that one up in a month.